In 2015, when President Barack Obama appeared on Marc Maron’s WTF podcast, it was a giant occasion exactly as a result of it was a one-off — an exception somewhat than a rule. Nearly a decade later, the media panorama has modified so fully that unbiased podcasters with little if any journalism expertise appear to have a neater time getting a sit-down with presidential candidates than main information shops do.
Rumors have swirled of a Kamala Harris interview with Joe Rogan, the godfather of politicized “apolitical” podcasters. Whereas Harris reportedly couldn’t make that look work, a Rogan sit-down with Donald Trump was confirmed this week, shortly adopted by a brand new report that Harris will seem on soccer icon Shannon Sharpe’s podcast Membership Shay Shay. Laborious on the heels of that report got here the information that Harris would even be a visitor on Brené Brown’s widespread relationship podcast Unlocking Us. These are all strikes signaling that the position of those unbiased brokers within the media ecosystem has turn into extra important than ever.
The blitz of Joe Everyman podcasts that Trump has performed on the marketing campaign path has turned heads, from Impaulsive to Bussin’ With the Boys, as has Harris’s current look on the Name Her Daddy podcast and Democratic vice presidential candidate Tim Walz’s look on the SmartLess podcast. What these podcasters have in frequent — apart from scoring conversations with the individuals vying for the White Home — is that they’re nonchalantly normie. As a lot as a “center” nonetheless exists in America, yow will discover it amongst this lot, chunk of whom declare to keep away from politics, even when they will’t assist stumbling into political matters.
Lots of them are comedians and entertainers by career, and few of them have labored in conventional newsrooms. They don’t all declare to be significantly well-informed about any matter on provide, and plenty of are, at greatest, simply casually invested in studying: Witness Theo Von’s August interview with Trump, wherein he introduced up severe matters, primarily the opioid epidemic, however with out something substantive to say about them. The previous Street Guidelines star wasn’t precisely outfitted to push again in opposition to any of Trump’s positions.
Name Her Daddy’s host Alex Cooper did stick primarily to substantive points throughout Harris’s interview, however she was apologetic about it, reminding her audiences that she usually avoids politics “as a result of I need Name Her Daddy to be a spot the place everybody feels comfy tuning in.” The apolitical stance extends to reserving as nicely; although no podcast has but hosted each candidates, a number of podcasters, together with Cooper and Von, have acknowledged that they’ve invited each candidates to come back on their reveals.
What, then, explains the politicians’ efforts to succeed in these podcast audiences? Their listener numbers, usually within the low thousands and thousands, could appear small, however they’re not as small as you assume. They not solely rival a conventional viewers of, say, 60 Minutes’ 6 million viewers, but additionally characterize loyal listeners more likely to be influenced by the podcast look. Nonetheless, there’s much more at work right here. Let’s have a look at the podcasters themselves.
How many individuals are tuning in? 1.5 million Kick subscribers; 2.6 million YouTube views
Who’s he? Adin Ross is a infamous online game streamer. Earlier this 12 months, out of what he indicated to Theo Von was a want to please his sons, Trump sat down with a hoop of podcasters recognized for protecting UFC fandom. Trump has additionally performed appearances with a variety of nontraditional right-wing pundits together with YouTubers and radio hosts, as has JD Vance, however the UFC circuit clearly gained him probably the most consideration — regardless of little or no dialogue of wrestling. Whereas all of those UFC hosts have a point of controversy, the doubtful prize for amplifying Trump most on to the “manosphere” arguably goes to Adin Ross.
Final 12 months, reportedly after years of flirting with being canceled, Ross was lastly completely banned from Twitch for homophobic slurs and different offensive feedback. Recognized for hobnobbing with Andrew Tate and selling poisonous masculinity and white supremacists, Ross retreated to rival platform Kick, of which he now owns 30 p.c. Although Kick is comparatively area of interest — with 1.5 million subscribers, Ross is the platform’s greatest account — his sit-down with Trump was additionally cross-posted to Ross’s YouTube channel, the place it’s picked up one other 2.6 million views within the two months because it aired. (Ross, who’s additionally a fan of Elon Musk, thanked Trump for his drop-in by … gifting him a Cybertruck.)
Logan Paul’s Impaulsive podcast, additionally streaming on YouTube
How many individuals are tuning in? A number of podcast listeners; 4.7 million YouTube subscribers; 6.6 million views
Who’s he? A former YouTube prankster and vlogger alongside his brother Jake, Logan Paul is greatest recognized for blowing up his enormously profitable profession with one 2018 video wherein he notoriously filmed a useless physique in Japan’s Aokigahara Forest. He subsequently launched into an impressively profitable redemption arc; Impaulsive, a conversational weekly podcast and YouTube stream with Paul, his co-hosts, and company, has arguably performed the most important position in rehabilitating his former immature picture into one thing approaching respectability. It’s at the moment reportedly ranked within the prime 50 podcasts throughout all platforms. His chat with Trump was conversational, if not significantly enlightening; the pair mentioned every part from aliens (Trump thinks they could exist) to AI; the deepest challenge was arguably a debate about whether or not Mike Tyson is just too outdated to field.
How many individuals are tuning in? A complete lot of podcast listeners; 3.2 million YouTube subscribers; 14 million views
Who’s he? Probably the most outstanding of the UFC trio, Theo Von’s This Previous Weekend is reportedly within the Spotify prime 20, in addition to among the many prime 10 podcasts throughout all platforms nationally. Von, a former MTV actuality common turned stand-up comedian turned podcaster, has solely gotten greater since his interview with Trump. The occasion generated a massively viral clip of Trump speculating about drug use and has since racked up a non-paltry 14 million views. Von reportedly reached out to Kamala Harris for an interview as nicely; he’s additionally since interviewed Trump’s working mate JD Vance, together with an intensive dialog about Vance’s household’s struggles with dependancy. He additionally interviewed Bernie Sanders in August.
How many individuals are tuning in? 1.77 million YouTube subscribers; 4.5 million views
Who’s he? Considered one of many standup comics-turned-podcasters on the listing, Schulz is one other comic who, like fellow Trump interviewer Von, purports to be apolitical however nurses contrarian anti-woke takes. One other MTV alum, he co-hosts the Flagrant podcast with fellow comic Akaash Singh; he additionally co-hosts the Good Idiots podcast with Charlamagne tha God, who lately interviewed Harris.
It’s Trump’s erratic interview on Flagrant, which has garnered 4.5 million views in every week, that’s gotten a lot of the current consideration. Trump mentioned the 2 current assassination makes an attempt made in opposition to him, implying at one level that each shooters might have been working with different individuals, together with nefarious international entities like Iran. The remainder of the interview primarily served as fodder for Schulz to make jokes and contributed little else substantive to the dialog. That didn’t cease Schulz from dealing with backlash; the Brooklyn Academy of Music promptly canceled an look by Schulz in response to the platforming of Donald Trump.
Charlamagne tha God and The Breakfast Membership
How many individuals are tuning in? Greater than 4 million morning radio listeners in over 80 markets; IHeartRadio has over 860 livestream stations nationwide
Who’s he? Among the many podcasters on this listing, Charlamagne tha God is arguably the one who represents conventional media, albeit of the popular culture selection. The longtime comic first gained his following by means of his affiliation with Wendy Williams and VH1. He and Schulz had been regulars on MTV’s Man Code earlier than they joined forces on The Good Idiots. Charlamagne’s actual declare to fame, nonetheless, is his longtime gig as host for the syndicated New York-based morning radio present The Breakfast Membership, a staple of 2010s radio that has branched right into a podcast community and a YouTube channel.
The Breakfast Membership, like most of the entrants on this listing, clearly muddies the waters between radio present, YouTube stream, and podcast, however the present’s increasing mediums appear essential to its longevity. The present, which was inducted into the Radio Corridor of Fame in 2020, is thought for that includes high-profile celeb interviews, and Kamala Harris was no exception: She lately did a particular “Audio City Corridor” with The Breakfast Membership, streamed out of Detroit on the IHeart radio community and hosted by Charlamagne. Charlamagne and Harris candidly agreed that Donald Trump is a fascist — an announcement you’re unlikely to listen to coming from a extra conventional interview platform.
Alex Cooper, Name Her Daddy podcast
How many individuals are tuning in? A megaton; it’s the No. 4 podcast within the US
Who’s she? Per NPR, woman-centered podcast Name Her Daddy boasts an excellent cut up between Democrats and Republicans, principally white. The uncommon host that’s on the cusp of Gen Z, creator Alex Cooper created her podcast along with her roommate only a 12 months after she graduated from faculty, whereupon it was promptly acquired by Barstool Sports activities and catapulted to recognition. (Cooper exited Barstool in 2021.) Although Cooper at the moment has all the eye for the current Harris interview, which centered primarily on reproductive freedom and well being care for ladies, she’s already onto a much bigger catch: interviewing Taylor Swift.
How many individuals are tuning in? Lots; it’s probably the most widespread sports activities podcasts within the US with 545k subscribers and 391k views on YouTube
Who’re they? Former Tennessee Titans turned besties turned podcasters, hosts Will Compton and Taylor Lewan have made a reputation for themselves amongst sports activities audiences with this conversational Barstool Sports activities podcast.
Although it wasn’t about sports activities, they scored Donald Trump’s longest interview but; he nattered for over two hours final week, chatting about every part from politics to Elon Musk and social media. He even mentioned doing all these podcasts, telling Compton and Lewan that the brand new crop of podcasters are “younger guys and so they’re very totally different in some instances.”
“It might need to do with all of my sons. They’re younger … This can be a younger world … I’ve performed just a few of them and so they’ve performed nicely.”
Joe Rogan, The Joe Rogan Expertise
How many individuals are tuning in: Legions; Rogan has been the most-listened-to podcast within the nation for practically a decade and at the moment has over 30 million subscribers between YouTube and Spotify.
Who’s he? One more standup comedian slash actuality TV star turned podcaster, Rogan made it massive within the podcast trade by embracing the medium early and being extremely prolific, churning out hours of content material weekly. His followers reward what they view as his down-to-earth, average model, however he balances that out with loads of controversy.
Shannon Sharpe, Membership Shay Shay
How many individuals are tuning in? 3.6 million YouTube subscribers and many podcast listeners; as of 2024, it’s the No. 11 podcast within the nation.
Who’s he? Former Denver Bronco, NFL Corridor of Famer, and veteran sports activities broadcaster Shannon Sharpe began Membership Shay Shay in 2020 when he was nonetheless maybe greatest referred to as a morning present host on Fox. Final 12 months, nonetheless, he transitioned his podcast to a brand new community and bought a brand new gig with ESPN, which can have helped launch Membership Shay Shay into the higher echelon of the podcast trade. Regardless of inadvertently lately livestreaming a sexual encounter to shocked followers, Sharpe hasn’t misplaced his enchantment: Kamala Harris will reportedly tape an interview with him to be broadcast on October 28.
Brené Brown, Unlocking Us with Brené Brown
How many individuals are tuning in? Lots; it’s reportedly the No. 1 relationship podcast on Apple Podcasts.
Who’s she? A famous disgrace researcher, Brown is the one educational on this motley podcast crew (and the one one so far whose podcast is hosted on the Vox Media community). Brown first gained widespread public consideration in 2010, when her TED Speak on vulnerability went massively viral. Since then she’s printed a number of bestselling books, performed a Netflix particular, and maintained a task as a professor — however it’s her ongoing podcast Unlocking Us that’s cemented her place because the nation’s premier relationship adviser.
Brown’s place on this listing isn’t and not using a contact of irony. In 2022, quite a few artists and entertainers blacklisted Spotify in protest in opposition to its profitable take care of Joe Rogan, as a response to Rogan’s platforming of Covid-19 misinformation (and plenty of different perceived sins). Amongst them, briefly, was Brown, who put each of the energetic podcasts she had on the platform on the time on hiatus, solely to later unpause them and declare, “I’m not keen on canceling or silencing or censoring anybody, together with Joe Rogan. This was not, nor has it ever been, framed to the general public or to Spotify as ‘me or Joe.’” If, nonetheless, Harris chooses to skip Rogan and switch to Brown as a substitute, Brown’s podcast viewers, which, per the New York Occasions, is massive and dominated by ladies, could possibly be the deciding affect of the election.
Podcasts are the place the individuals are
In a post-pandemic tradition the place parasocial relationships have grown extra frequent and intense, podcasts have turn into extra essential than ever. They’re proper in individuals’s ears, providing a uniquely intimate type of connection, not solely to the hosts however to the occasions and concepts they’re platforming. They’re reworking the way in which audiences find out about problems with the day, conserving them engaged and (kind of) conscious; the general public’s love of podcasting simply retains rising, with audiences increasing, getting youthful, and listening longer and extra regularly. The medium, as soon as relegated to extraordinarily on-line audiences with area of interest pursuits, has progressively turn into extra mainstream and wide-reaching; 42 p.c of Individuals over age 12 listened to a podcast within the final month, and that quantity is just going up.
Conversely, the general public’s belief in media retains plunging decrease throughout the ideological spectrum: Lower than a 3rd of Individuals say they trust within the accuracy of conventional information mediums, and the variety of adults getting their information from precise information sources retains declining 12 months over 12 months. Podcasts are in a position to attain audiences which have given up on conventional media, at the same time as the road between podcasters and journalists will get blurry and the boundaries between mediums get fuzzier. The convergence of digital media with the creator financial system and vice versa has created complete new submodes of influencers, from the type that siphon and recycle different kinds of content material to the type that exist completely as scorching takes on TikTok.
More and more, journalists with a correct newsroom background, like web tradition reporter Taylor Lorenz and Vox co-founder Matt Yglesias, have traded their former jobs for autonomy, independence, and constant fan followings. Conventional reporters are additionally Substack influencers, whereas podcasts are additionally livestreams on Twitch and/or movies on YouTube and TikTok. All of that is inflicting seismic rifts and ever extra unreliable journalism in a media atmosphere wherein the general public already distrusts the media. As the recognition of podcasts retains rising, these interviews with main public figures arguably add a patina of unearned status and significance, at the same time as skilled media shops take hit after hit. On this messier media panorama, it’s simple to see why so many of those podcasters have a lot sway with their audiences — and why politicians may wish to faucet into that.
That accessibility is a double-edged sword, nonetheless, since most of those podcasters lack editorial oversight. And not using a journalism background, podcasters typically aren’t the very best individuals to critique or fact-check their company, particularly high-profile ones. Creators of every kind prioritize character and attraction over journalistic rigor and data; as with the medium itself, the delineation between what issues for what cause has damaged down. Nonetheless, audiences don’t typically care; the bar for podcast media is decrease, and viewers expectations for podcasters to be “journalists” within the conventional sense are largely nonexistent. Podcasters like Von typically profit from a rough-and-ready model that permits them to distinction themselves with stodgy conventional media.
It’s not that the candidates are fully eschewing conventional media; Harris’s press parade has included a variety of different shops and interviewers, together with legacy media, like her current NBC Information interview, in addition to a number of that aren’t significantly politically centered, like veteran “shock jock” Sirius host Howard Stern, who endorsed her. Trump additionally lately did an interview with Bloomberg’s enterprise podcast, whereas Tim Walz sat down for an interview with The Ezra Klein Present for the New York Occasions; Trump working mate JD Vance has likewise been hitting each conventional and non-traditional media laborious.
The podcast format (alongside its more and more indistinguishable twin, the livestream) appears to matter increasingly. Vulture famous that Trump’s mixed appearances on Schulz’s and Von’s podcasts have dwarfed the paltry views Harris obtained for her look on Name Her Daddy, regardless of the latter present reportedly being probably the most widespread podcast amongst ladies on Spotify. (Her look on The View appears to have performed higher, a sign that older audiences nonetheless matter.) Nonetheless, Harris’s look on Name Her Daddy proved controversial amongst her constituents, whereas Trump’s appearances on a broad litany of dudebro podcasts have gone comparatively unremarked upon — regardless that the latter are arguably demonstrably influencing a technology of voters.
That lack of pushback in opposition to Trump’s interview decisions may additionally mirror the more and more decentralized media panorama, the place “affect” is extra nebulous and subjective than ever whereas concurrently changing into extra microtargeted and intense. A podcaster like Cooper or Von might attain a fraction of the viewers of 60 Minutes, however the sorts of viewers they attain aren’t more likely to be discovered watching the information. As Vulture’s Nick Quah observes, “We’ve lengthy arrived at a spot the place Individuals, now polarized past recognition, favor information sources that align with their ideology, in the event that they even devour a lot information in any respect … In these arenas, hosts don’t care about executing ‘good’ or difficult interviews within the traditional journalistic sense. The interview simply has to make sense to their viewers.”
That additionally signifies that interviews not push candidates to reckon with severe, even disagreeable or troublesome matters. The sorts of questions that determine a powerful chief, versus one who’s merely affable and interviews nicely, aren’t very more likely to come up on a UFC podcast. However that’s additionally one thing candidates might favor; in any case, who needs to take care of hard-hitting questions from journalists once they might discipline softballs from on a regular basis residents who aren’t backed by a staff of editors and fact-checkers? These interviews are simple, enjoyable, and personable, which additionally is perhaps a welcome various to moderated, issue-focused debates — even when they’re a disservice to voters.
That’s the unlucky draw back to all of this: Regardless of the way you spin it, these interviews are a poor substitute for journalistic rigor, accountability, and editorial oversight. They could arguably even be a hindrance to democracy in an age the place it faces a number of existential threats. We usually count on our leaders and consultants to be higher than the general public at understanding and coping with such monumental issues and dire realities. But more and more, our leaders and consultants are being changed by self-appointed influencers with no precise experience. The result’s a bleak, livestreamed morass: Even when we’re keen on the voices reaching us by means of the void, we’re nonetheless all fumbling at midnight.
Replace, October 25, 2:50 pm: This story, initially printed October 25, has been up to date with the information that Harris will seem on Brené Brown’s podcast and gained’t be showing on Rogan’s.